Loot system

[Magali]

I'm sorry to be such a pusher.
Yet the point I raised is very valid:

if I say 'I am feral', I will be allowed to need all leather healer gear AND a few bear/cat items
=> I shaft others

if I say 'I am healer', I will only be allowed to need healer leather
=> I shaft myself

I really would like to discuss this with an officer and propose an alternative solution... which has already been proposed by Heffa


'Please also consider how much of an upgrade items are. Generally, we feel that if an item is an upgrade, then this is a fair roll. However, there are some things that are duplicated in Karazhan (there is more than 1 spell damage necklace for example). If you have already have a very good item in a particular slot, and the other person who needs an item doesn't, then it may be fairer to pass on the item to allow them to win it.'

[Llianna]

I've been suggesting a points system since before we touched Kara.

It is the fairest possible way to approach loot.


But every time I've come up with the idea - someone else brushes it under the carpet. 

[Annwyn]

The problem with using some sort of point system is that almost every week we bring someone from outside the guild and that might make it very hard for them to get anything at all in certain group setups. I really hope that ppl can reason about the "normal" loot and that the cookie system for t4 is enough. Yesterdays event somewhat proved me wrong though I guess..but generally we've been able to deal with loot issues before when we've had ppl who respecc alot (like Blog used to) who wants to roll on both healer and dps gear.

I really don't see your reasoning with shafting yourself from being only able to roll on healing gear, if you are a healer it will make you heal better, I don't see how that is a problem. Of course I want nice gear too for the few times I quest or grind something with Vervain, but that doesn't mean I should roll against mages on dps cloth, does it? Besides, as someone (Eldrida I think) said last night, in time our leather wearers will be geared already and it's possible to win feral gear on greed rolls, like I've done with some cloth items. But what I think you should do is decide on a spec for raid purposes and stick to it, at least lootwise.

[Acka]

From what I understand if you say "I'm a feral" you should be allowed to primary roll on feral gear, but not on healer gear...

Lets say you are feral, but you're healing now and you wanna get some feral gear.

So when something feral drop you will roll on it against Lnakka fairly. But when some +healing trinket will drop, healers like Heffa and Verv will get priority over you, because you're feral...

That should be how it is and fair in my opinion...
Same it was with Blog, he was healing but he wanted to roll on damage gear, so he said that before raid and rolled on damage gear while Rowain (shadow at that time) rolled on healing gear...

[Lnakka]

So when something feral drop you will roll on it against Lnakka fairly. But when some +healing trinket will drop, healers like Heffa and Verv will get priority over you, because you're feral...

And livialt, alot of rogue gear is great for feral.
But for the time being i cant be bothered to work out what i need for dps, figuring out what to buy for my new PC is enough of a headache.

[Karathe]

In my opinion, it goes like this;

You're Feral Specced, In Kara, doing whatever it is you ferals do, whether that's tanking or DPSing.
Now, Lets say a "feral" leather piece drops. By all means, roll on it if you need it.
   So, lets say some healer leather drops...and you want it. Just ask the raid if any
healers want it. if they dont, ask if you can take it for your Resto Set, they'll probably say "yeah", and anyways, it'll do more good on you than as a Shard...

-Kar

[Magali]

I really should learn to express myself clearly, because I haven't been understood, please accept my apologies.
What I meant is that Heffa will anyways pass on all *leather* healer gear for me, as she has better, with maybe a few exceptions, but I doubt it anyways as our healers are very decent, her in particular, and see the greater good.

It means that if I say I'm feral, I can roll every healer leather, possibly a few healer equips/weapons, and every feral armour/equip/weapon;
If i say I'm healer I can roll only healer armour/equip/weapon.

In one case I can roll from 4 to 6 categories of items and I am nothing but a thief.
In the other case I can only roll three categories of item, and I'm a robbery victim.


Therefore I'll *say* I am healer, because I'd rather be the good guy than the greedy one, but I cannot help feeling, and telling, that it is unfair someone with epic cat gear rolling against someone with green cat gear. My two cents
If ever I have to spec feral again (speccing for the raid already cost me 65g btw), what use will I be with greens? The greater good of the raid should take that into consideration. I find it absurd that someone could upgrade epic to epic while someone else stays with a green/blue, even if it is/isn't their primary role.
Like yesterday, Severen should have gotten that head gear, he had the blue second sight helmet from Shadowmoon quests, whereas Livialt had the already very good 'badges of justice' rogue epic helmet. The raid lost in total dps, since Severen upgrading would have boosted us way more.

Two other points:

Point one: imagine someone already won one or many items, and even though it is his primary role, deliberately passes for someone who got a shitty item in that slot...
In my opinion, this attitude is worth loads more to the raid than +3dps or +5heal

Point two: roles are a part of it. We shouldn't pass on something because it is not perceived as 'primary' role. I'll give an example:

is Gruffalo's primary role 'Arcane tanking'? No? Then Csilla, as a furry warrior should be allowed to need against him every arcane resistance plate. That seems weird, doesn't it?

My solution? Everyone should get two roles and items hould go to the best upgrade

suggestions, though I don't know alot of classes well enough to say

Warrior - tank / fury
Rogue - dps / pvp
Shaman - resto / dps
Hunter - CC / dps
Druid - resto / tank
Paladin - resto / tank
Priest - resto / dps
Mage - fire / frost

maybe my suggestions above are wrong, but you get the meaning of it.
This would have many advantages:

there is now very little chances someone can't roll any item in a given raid. Since everyone gets two roles, that doesn't take items away from someone who would have won them in one-role-only system.
Loot gets distributed more evenly, rather than having someone totally geared up, then gear the second roles.


One last point to take into consideration... if the boss is down and gives us loot.... who *needs* that loot? The secondary roles, since the primary roles where already geared enough to down the boss
Shabba

[Lnakka]

In my opinion, it goes like this;

You're Feral Specced, In Kara, doing whatever it is you ferals do, whether that's tanking or DPSing.
Now, Lets say a "feral" leather piece drops. By all means, roll on it if you need it.
   So, lets say some healer leather drops...and you want it. Just ask the raid if any
healers want it. if they dont, ask if you can take it for your Resto Set, they'll probably say "yeah", and anyways, it'll do more good on you than as a Shard...

-Kar

sounds good, only use healing really for battlegrounds, and sometimes pve.

Anyway regerdless there about 3-6 things i would really want/need.
If a leather casterpeice drops I will pass if someone else wants/needs it, for the reason i want to better myself just for the raid. In that way we all get the good gear for the role, the easier runs will be, the more chance of something for an off spec.

But if i'm not mistaken was it saying for a rolling like "I'm rolling for dps" or "i'm roll for healer". Bleh >.>.

And saying your cat gear is mostly green would shock me, a good 75% of my cat is quested items, with 3 epics.. And yes i still use green items (maybe 2-3 now).

[Flippant]

Is this more about a lack of pure healers in raids, rather than the loot system itself?

The system is based more on a balanced raid set-up, as any system should be -even with DKP/point systems, the pure classes typically get priority over the 'nice to have' items or second role style specs. If your play style is dps, but you typically play a healer in raids (due to lack of a pure healers), then you may find you do get more healer related items over time as the pure healers get equipped.

[Rowain]

It means that if I say I'm feral, I can roll every healer leather, possibly a few healer equips/weapons, and every feral armour/equip/weapon;
If i say I'm healer I can roll only healer armour/equip/weapon.

That is just a special situation right now, because our healers are very well geared. Its not a flaw in the system.

If the item is not a big upgrade to you, you can always pass. We believe that our members have enough common sense to let others have it if it is a bigger upgrade for them.

Primary rolling on both possible roles is unfair to those who cannot have two roles. If you switch roles alot, you use them for the good of the raid, true. But you are using them only say 50% of the time, while a primary class uses it all the time. So unless it is just a tiny upgrade for them, it should go to them.
Besides, multi-role people eventually settle to one role for most of the time. It's quite hard to get top-notch equipment for both roles.

[Livialt]

2Magali
Like yesterday, Severen should have gotten that head gear, he had the blue second sight helmet from Shadowmoon quests, whereas Livialt had the already very good 'badges of justice' rogue epic helmet.

Yes,I get all best pre-kara gear,so I'm ready to get better gear from Karazhan,coz it's next step to gear up.From your words,I need to go to Kara,put pass to all gear that drop,and better that I wear?

[Acka]

I understand you Magali, if I have epic item yet and another hunter in raid have crappy old blue I would pass for him as it would be better upgrade for him then for me and that item can drop again next time so what...

So yes, in my opinion Livi should pass on another epic when Severen had something much worse.
But truth is that we don't enforce anyone to pass on something that is for his primary role, as Rowain said we believe in players common sence...

Same happened for me when bow from Prince dropped, I rolled against Archia who had another epic bow from Thrallmar reputation and I had crappy blue from SMV quest...
I hoped she will pass as it would be bigger upgrade for me then for her, but she didn't it was her right.

So this whole thing is not about looting system (as title stated) but about players, so if something bugs you blame that player not system

[Magali]

No one 'bugs' me
On the other hand, I like talking about possible ways to make a more and more fool proof system

(whatever the system, by the way; this doesn't apply only to loot - if I found a good idea to ensure that the (pedal) biking lanes are free of reckless (motor) bikes I would annoy everyone all around me including my local representative, until I was sure it would either be used, or I would be bonked on the noggin'.)

[Magali]

even with DKP/point systems, the pure classes typically get priority over the 'nice to have' items or second role style specs.

You can bet your epics I would upgrade bear and healer on a par with a DKP system! And by that I mean I would see if a piece is an upgrade for one of those two roles, if I have DKP and damn well bet on it!

[Annwyn]

Could we move this thread to the members section or do we want everyone to see our argueing over loot?