DKP and Raids

[Flippant]

Was browsing through the websites of my old guild and some others. It's been a while since my old guild used DKP - e.g. Molten Core, BWL etc etc.

So got me thinking, is 'DKP and WoW' now dead? Seems to be so, does DKP have a place any more when Outlands equipment is generally very good.

[Rowain]

I think a good DKP system would be beneficial even know. If someone has been raiding a place for a long time s/he eventually comes to the point where s/he only needs a few items and will not roll on most drops (thus giving newcomers alot higher chance of getting that stuff than s/he originally had). Without DKP their chances of improving gets slimmer and slimmer up to a point where they lose interest in raiding the place again. DKP would resolve these problems and reduce the role of luck in distributing loot.

The lack of a DKP system right now is more of a technical issue as we did not want to bother with the administration part especially when group composition changed alot. I think we should not completely forget about DKP, it may be good to start it in the future.

[Kempos]

During my WOW experience I have been in guilds using DKP and guild not using DKP.

Personally I am a supporter of DKP, but understand that it requires alot of work to keep such a system updated.

I don't think DKP is a must for the guild raids, but I think it will be necessary to clarify this issue when we start participating in 25-man raids with other guilds. Even though we play for fun and getting new equipment is a bonus, I feel it is important that players get some rewards for their work. And loot distribution guidelines should always be clarified before guilds start doing raids together. This is to avoid heated loot discussions during the raid. With 25 players playing together, there is bound to be disagreements. Having rules and guidelines established beforehand reduces the chances for this. Then players know on what terms they are joining the raid.

[csilla]

DKP for Karazhan doesnt make much sense, 10 players that are rarely the same every week, sometimes even pugged.

DKP for 25mans is something else though, if you plan on doing them long term, then better start DKP at the start.

[Acka]

I think DPK could work (and become useful) even in Kara, but we would need to make it little bit less pugged as Csilla said...
DKP can't work when every week you have someone new in raid...

It would some luck rolls, like getting 3 epics from 3 bosses in one night (not then I'm not happy when someone gets new gear, but as Row said, some people can become annoyed when he get ourolled on his T4 gloves 6th time...)

What I don't like on other side is unfairness for newcommers imo...
Lets say we are using DKP few weeks, then someone finaly get to level 70, do attunement and will have good enough gear, we will take him to raid and it will be like "sure you will get loot, but only if none else with more points then you (and you have 0 now) will want it.."

[Heffa]

I think it's always tricky from the point of view of fairness, since people are always going to be upset if they miss out on something they want (let's be honest - even if the end decision is totally fair and reasonable, people may feel a bit miffed). On the one hand, I love seeing people gear up - it benefits us all if people have better gear. On the other, I agree with Row that when you've been a few times, there's only a few items you want left - if you've been continually attending every raid for months, then you're going to feel pretty upset when the item you want finally drops and someone who's there for the first time wins it over you.

Certainly I hope we will be using some DKP system once we start doing larger raids. I think it is a bit too late to use it in Kara and would be difficult anyway since there's a PuG element. At the moment we use Master Looter and use common sense. Some people clearly have priority on particular items (main tank has priority on tanking gear, active healers have priority on healing gear etc) and I'd hope that all of us would think carefully when we decide to roll about who else needs it and whether you really need it. (NB: I'm not suggesting people shouldn't roll on things they need, of course they should - but there are some situations in which it might be nicer/fairer to pass).

[Rowain]

What I don't like on other side is unfairness for newcommers imo...
Lets say we are using DKP few weeks, then someone finaly get to level 70, do attunement and will have good enough gear, we will take him to raid and it will be like "sure you will get loot, but only if none else with more points then you (and you have 0 now) will want it.."

I think that is perfectly balanced by the fact that newcomers have much higher chance of getting something on drops the "veterans" already have. It everyone were newcomer there would be much higher chance of competition.
Also with "zero-sum" DKP (I think) people get high DKP only if they did not get alot of gear recently (not needing most things and/or getting unlucky with drops).

[csilla]

I've experienced the zero-sum DKP system, and to be honest, it only made the veteran players upset after the change. They started with negative, while any newly recruited freshy had 0.
Also with zero-sum, you only get DKP if someone else spends it, meaning that after a short time, people wont attend specific "farm raids", where most of the loot is DEed. So if someone didnt get their loot from an instance in time, they'll never get it, becouse attendance will be too low in that place.

[gruffalo]

I like the master looter system as it is now, for guild runs of Karazhan it works great IMO. And in Kara most often any drop is only wanted by 1 or 2 people now, and we just discuss it and then roll if necessary. The exception being tier 4 tokens, which ofc every class (who it drops for) can use as it is for all specs.

Although, for me in Kara it is easy: as there is only really need for one MT , when tanking plate/weapon/shield/trinket/accessory drops I get it, unless I already have it or I don't need it then the OT gets it. If
 DPS trinket/weapon/accessory/trinket  (not plate coz I already have the ONE dps plate item in the whole of Kara) drops, I let dpsers have it, if no-one wants it then I ask for it.

I guess it's different for other people like pure dpsers though as they may have to compete. And Row has a valid point about the situation where people come back week after week for one item in the whole instance only for it to drop and someone else to roll and get it- seems unfair. But then if I had absolutely everything from Karazhan I wanted, would I stop doing runs? No, but thats coz I wouldn't want to use the group for personal gain and then move on once I had a bunch of epics - as some people have done  :'(

So basically while it's guild runs in Kara, I don't see too much of a looting problem provided everyone is reasonable and its still more about fun and friendship than OMG epixx!

But yeah as soon as we get into raid groups with other guilds a more structured system might be fairer- or at least, give a system in which people can work with some more guarantee of reward. Because grouping with other guilds we won't be able to keep track of who has been alot to the raid or only a few times, who has won how much already, we won't have any idea how good someone's current gear is etc etc - all the things which are in the background with guild groups. Also, when it's all in the guild people are (or should be!) more careful not to piss each other off by taking loot, which probably wouldnt be the case in a multi-guild alliance.

But..

The whole concept of DKP scares and confuses me 

As for DKP: you get points for turning up and killing bosses etc yeah?

I just don't understand how you use them to buy items. If an item drops in e.g. Karazhan and no-one else wants it, do you have to spend points on it anyway? If someone has lots of DKP but wants to basically ninja something which blatantly should go to someone else, can they do that? Is there any place for common sense and negotiation in there or is just "I brought 500 potions along and didnt roll on the stuff I should have taken so now I can ninja the thing which looks cool".... ?

[Heffa]

I've been reading about other alternatives to DKP (such as Suicide Kings) which sound quite interesting; I guess we can discuss them all when we need to implement something like this.

The thing with leaving 'to roll or not to roll' decisions up to individuals is that everyone has different understandings of what's fair. I have my own 'rules' which I make choices with but they're not necessarily the same as other peoples' - even though we're both acting in a way we consider to be totally fair. I also worry a little bit about people making deals with each other, or manipulating the situation. For example, passing on everything (even if you need it) so that you can later say 'Oh, I should get this shiny because I passed on everything else'. Currently, I don't think we'd allow this - if you choose not to roll for any reason, that's your choice. I'd hope that all of us in Prophecy (being the warm, friendly guild we are) would employ common sense and not manipulate the situation in any way.

[Rowain]

I've never raided with a DKP system so my concepts may be completely wrong. But I'm interested in the theory of it (I'm sure you are not sureprised and trying to invent a fair system appeals the economist in me. Sooo, in spite of my complete lack of experience I'll try to anwer to Gruff

I imagine a zero-sum system like this. First we price all items. At first it may sound hard but I think it can be done easily by the stats you have on the item. It is determined by the item level and the gear slot (so a legging or a two handed weapon is alot more expensive than a bracer).
When items drop off bosses, people can state their interest in them. The item goes to the one with the most DKP (roll at equal amount). After it the one who got the item gets a deduction equal to the item worth from his/her DKP points, and all the other get it added spread out to the remaining group (so in case of Kara everyone else gets 1/9 of its worth). If noone needs, the item gets sharded and the point do not change (I think).
This seems to me a fair system because the sum of points remains zero, so newcomers are not handicapped. If someone gets unlucky with drops for a long while, s/he will get positive points which increases his/her chances to get the item when it drops at last. If someone gets lucky s/he will slip into negative territory and can get items only when noone else needs them.
It also makes the decision of needing an item more serious: rolling on an item that improves your gear only a little bit or do not really fit your class still costs you the full amount. Not that this is a problem in Prophecy.

If someone has lots of DKP but wants to basically ninja something which blatantly should go to someone else, can they do that?

If someone has alot of DKP in this system it means s/he did get less loot than the average member, so an advantage here is fair. Getting an item has DKP cost so "ninjaing" is expensive and totally unreasonable (and evil) if you cannot do anything with the item Not that we have or will have member that wants to do that. We can of course set some hard rules on who can or cannot get the item regardless of the DKP points. But since in this system getting an item is not free and our members are reasonable, in theory you don't even have to have these rules.

[Acka]

I like the master looter system as it is now, for guild runs of Karazhan it works great IMO. And in Kara most often any drop is only wanted by 1 or 2 people now, and we just discuss it and then roll if necessary. The exception being tier 4 tokens, which ofc every class (who it drops for) can use as it is for all specs.

tier 4 tokens are the biggest pain for me as a Hunter...

I'm in group with mages and warlocks... True we don't have much warlocks, but every time we take 2 hunters and 2 mages... that means 4 people wanting tokens (5 with Azrac)... on the other side, yesterday we had 2 shamans in raid, which are in group with paladins and rogues... it just unfair

If we would have DKP I would keep all my points for token, as for other items there is bigger chance none will need...

[deathraver]

If it make's you feel better about getting the T4 drops i have both from kara... so thats 1 mage out the way  . I was lucky i got mine in 1 week.

Goog luck.

[Rowain]

If we would have DKP I would keep all my points for token, as for other items there is bigger chance none will need...

You being the only "roller" wouldn't mean you don't have to "pay" for the item. I think

[Heffa]

I have heard that quite a few guilds don't use DKP at all for Kara, but have some kind of system in place for tier 4. Personally, I'd quite like to see this as it's a real shame if someone goes along to every Curator/Prince kill for ages and keeps missing out to people there for the first time etc. Perhaps more so than with other loot, because there are normally far more people to roll on t4 than other items - and other items can be worked out by looking at how much of an upgrade something is etc - but everyone wants their t4 (justifiably).